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#1. Guy's info on seminar (so far) by Herschel

DDM Seminar Details

Andy Collins
Stephen Schubert
Ian Richards
Rob Heinsoo
Bill Slaviseck

Attendees: over 90 attendees total (90 seats, plus standing room), including members of Team Amish, Montreal, Team Colluder, Van DDM.

Rob took a quick survey asking who plays for skirmish, who plays what factions (including whichever faction we feel is the strongest).
Who still paints metal minis? Who did, but stopped. Who kit-bashed plastic minis?

Steve put a bunch of minis up on the podium, including the gelatinous cube! The top comes off, and you can put a medium-size mini init!

Introductions:
Steve: Lead dev for DDM
Andy: Steve's boss
Bill: Steve's grand-boss (He said, "I'm not that old!")
Rob: DDM designer, Three Dragon Ante, Inn-Fighting.

(Steve Winter is now in Bill's R&D team.)

Picture of the Legend of Drizzt pack. (reminder: get photo from Jamie)
Drizzt using same stats as the Archfiends release, but new sculpt.
Wulfgar has different paint scheme from the one in Night Below.
It's actually possible for them to kill the Dragon together.

DDM Tournaments:
Gen Con 2007 - Constructed Championshio
Limited Champ Series
Gen Con Qualifier
Penny Arcade Expo Qualifier (next weekend up in seattle)
DDExp 2008 Limited championships; xp dates: 28/29 feb 1 march
2008 Championship series:
- more qualifiers
- better prizes
Champioinship next year will be 200 point constructed

...more to follow...


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#25 Today, 09:28 AM
Guy Fullerton
Member
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Guy's Gen Con 2007 Report

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DDM Seminar Continued

Desert of Desolation
Monsters and Heroes both familiar and new: Gelatinous Cube
Re-concepted creatures from early 4th edition art: The troll, for example, will have the 4th edition look.
Mount creatures for the DDM game: Mounts can accept certain types of riders. Riders don't actually go on the mini; instead you set the rider on the stat card to indicate who the rider is riding. Mounts give special abilities to the rider. New mount rules on the booster insert, with online support (if necessary. (From Guy: The mount rules are already really technically solid, IMO. I got to review them a few months ago.)
Every monster in the set except one is going to be appearing in the first 4th Ed Monster Manual. (Barring the pc types, of course.)
Pictures shown of Umber Hulk, Mummy, Gelatinous Cube.

Aside: The code name for 4th edition might have potentially been Project Viper (Andy's evil mastermind brain child), but it was actually called Orcus. Orcus is on the cover of the new monster manual. Orcus is also sort of the mascot of 4th edition.

D&D Minis Game will be re-launched in April 2008. It will look a little different from the game we know today. But it will still feel like the DDM game we know today. They want the DDM game to be as close to the D&D combat experience as they can. They want DDM to be an extension of D&D combat.

Some of the different rules for DDM:

- These attempt to remove the barriers to entry from the D&D game.

- There are no command or morale rules in the new edition.

- Instead, there are special abilities creatures have that make them much better at taking out enemies that are at half damage, and things like that.

- The concept of commanders becomes "Champions:" These are the special creatures that have special abilities they can use a few times per game to really help their warband. These are the creatures that you can build warbands around, but you no longer need to check whether creatures are in command, etc.

- Faction system changes: Current DDM makes it challenge for R&D to give interesting minis to LG, for example. The new faction system is more like this: borderlands, civilization, the wild, underdark. Every creature hails from at least one, but probably two factions. Dwarf Caver might be from civilized and underdark. They also have keywords for Good & Evil, and your warband can't contain both Good & Evil creatures together. Sort of a two-tiered faction system. It takes more to have the Good & Evil keywords than it does today. Only the creatures who are "Capital E Evil" will have the Evil keyword. There is a lot of variety in warband constructions.

...more to follow...

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#2. by Herschel

So, will the set AFTER Desert of Desolation be delayed a month?

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#3. by Herschel

DDM Seminar Continued

April: DDM Starter game
- $14.95
- 5 fixed minis in clear plastic clamshell: Young Green Dragon, Yuan-Ti, Dwarf Battlemaster, Human Sellsword, Elf Warlock.
- These minis are not included in the dungeon of dread set.
- It's set up as a starter game so the creatures are relatively balanced against each other (possibly a group vs. one dragon).
- Two double-sided maps. One side of one map is split into two maps for smaller battles. (Including the starter/learning battle.)
- Quick Start rules
- New Rulebook: A little less Byzantine
- Reorganization of the cards: Clearer with trigger conditions, amount of action

In 4th Ed: A Young Green Dragon is Large.

April 2008: Dungeons of Dread set
Showed booster picture with Beholder (matches the Beholder statue picture above); Four armed skeleton; Some kind of flaming (or icy) dude with a big hammer.

Legacy Support for DDM 2.0:
Designing DDM 2.0 stat cards for every set coming out this year. Free downloadable cards to print & use.
Also support for the All Stars set: 60 minis that the skirmish players want to see in the new game, which will be drawn from the first 11 sets. Steve anticipates many of the minis we're playing with right now. A lot of the stuff you might have bought on eBay the last few months are likely to be supported.
Potentially willing to make/sell hard copies of the legacy support cards depending on demand.

Going to be able to start playing DDM 2.0 soon:
D&D Insider will have new stat cards for Desert of Des.
Online Rulebook
Stat Card Downloads
Launch Tournament at DD XP next feburary. (Tentatively planned, so no promises.)
Sneak Peek of a stat card at D&D Game day Nov 3rd. There will actually be a current stat card and a 4th Edition stat card. (Well, they're not sure. Details are hazy.)

Pictures of minis of the new Troll from Desert of Desolation, plus the armored fire elemental-like creature.

...more to follow...

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#4. by zhaodai

OH NO!!! They're going to ruin the game! The world is ending! I ... ah hell.

I am sorry, though I am not sold 100% just yet on everything, from the early looks I see, I think this could be very cool and very good for the game.

As far as the new troll goes ... well I am still not totally sold just yet.

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#5. by Herschel

I don't like the "ditching" of commanders, per se, but we'll have to see. Morale is gone? That will help me a LOT!

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#6. by Herschel

DDM Seminar Q&A

Q: Please give us Greyhawk minis: Igglwyv (spelling?), Rary, etc.

Q: Will there be re-balancing of All Star stats for the new game:
A: They will have to be, because the stats & system has changed. The goal is to give you *playable* *competitive* minis. For example, a Storm Silverhand mage band will still be playable, even though the stats will be slightly different. The point costs on the new cards won't necessarily match the point costs on the bases of the All Star minis. (Though the overall scale of point costing is basically the same. But there are some changes such that low cost minis will be better able to fight higher-cost minis.)

Q: (Question I couldn't hear.)
A: There will be 200 point and 500 point play.

Q: Will there be a Magic Online like mechanism?
A: Right now the online miniatures are different than the ones they're putting in the boxes. The online minis are for the virtual tabletop. You will get a selection of virtual minis as part of your subscription. (I think that last sentence is right, but may not be.)

Q: For competitive players, we end up with lots of redundant minis that we don't use. Will there be support for mass battles rules so we can make use of those?
A: No plans for that. But Rob asked how many people played the mass battles rules. Rob agrees it would be fun to play with those redundant minis in the game; this is a job for a designer in the future.

Q: Balancing? How much effort is being given to promoting synergies.
A: They're making sure champion powers are things you'd want to build warbands around. But there will always be some figures that just prove to be stronger than others, but they're working hard to make sure things like champion abilities play a strong role in the game. They design some obvious combos, as well as more subtle synergies, and they also end up with some unanticipated synergies. If you can put in enough information density and interesting hooks, those synergies end up manufacturing themselves as the pool of minis increases.

Q: For tabletop, will we ever be able to buy boxes of orcs & goblins, and so on?
A: They struggle with that every year, but probably not because of the SKU issues. Distributors also don't want to distribute that sort of pack. But they may try a few more scenario packages (like the Drizzt pack) in the future. And WotC recognizes the secondary market as a way to meet the need.

Q: Might there be more than 60 All Star cards in the future? We want to use all our old minis.
A: No firm plans yet. But they've discussed various options, including rotating figures in & out of the 60 figure set, and so on. Depending on feedback to the All Star sets, who knows what might happen. Possibly also bring old minis into new sets, so you can continue to use the old sculpt. But, in order to keep new players coming into the game, there is some amount of need to not support very old sets. In a perfect world, they'd make all minis usable. However, if all old minis stay usable forever, new players might be unable to get minis they need for competitive play. Plus there are the obvious resource design constraints. They're pretty sure they're never going to re stat all the old minis.

Q: Any plans to change the distribution?
A: Same rare/uncommon/common breakdown.

Q: Is the new game compatible with the current game?
A: No, the skirmish stats don't directly translate from the old to the new. The ones that don't have All Star stats won't be usable in the new skirmish game.

Q: When will the qualifiers start running the new system?
A: It sounds like the 2008 qualifiers will use the new sets.

Q: Icingdeath set and stuff like that: Will those be updated?
A: All the Icons will be updated.

Q: What about Chainmail proxies in the new game?
A: Not sure, but it makes a kind of sense. They like the idea of potentially using all four drow chainmail sculpts as the one Drow DDM 2.0 creature that was thrown out there.

Q: Can you release downloadable old stat cards for the new sets that come with the stat cards?
A: No. They don't have the resources, and they want to design for the new game. (Not the old game.) But they have no objection to fans of the old game carrying the banner of the old game, putting DDM 1.0 stats out there for DDM 2.0 creatures, and so on.

Q: What kind of metagame should we expect in the future? What's the deal with not all minis being playable? What's the deal with the apparent power creep? Do you have any idea what percentage of minis people use in competitive play?
A: There are a lot of minis that people use when testing competitive warbands that don't ultimately show up in top level competitive play, but they *do* show up, and that's good. They feel that DDM is one of the most diverse CMGs, and that's a good thing. They want any given mini to have a moment in the sun, with rays of sunshine occasionally shining down on it later. R&D values diversity, and they know it's something players value. Ultimately its the players that determine what warbands show up.

Q: Is there still a 8 activation limit.
A: 10 minis as a standard, and it should still fit in a 1-hour format.

Q: What about those of us that want to play the goblin horde and radically break the 10 mini limit?
A: It's a challenge to make the small creatures meaningful on the battlefield, given breath weapons, and so on. But costing in the last 6 sets has really helped them go forward with the new game. The relative costs of creatures of disparate levels will be reasonable and meaningful such that two 20 point minis can - in theory - be an even battle with the single 40 point mini.

Q: Map initiative & Map distribution?
A: Initiative is still a d20 roll. The player with the highest champion rolls two dice and takes the best of them. The maps might be brought forward into the game (no plans to announce, but there was some suggestion that *some* current maps will be brought forward), but you'll have to ignore things like exit squares. (There are fear effects, but they don't make you run toward the exits.) Victory areas and start areas are still relevant. Still looking at ways to distribute maps other than in starters: Possibly organized play, possibly on the backs of set posters (lots of applause), possibly put maps into the D&D products. But they don't want to make an adventure map with lots of skirmish details getting in the way.

Q: Are you reducing the randomness?
A: They think the game is a little less swingy.

Q: Will there be odd speeds? Even speeds with double moves limit the tactical choices.
A: They want more speeds to be closer to 6, which means a lot of 7s and 5s.

Q: DCI ratings: Will the system change? Will we be getting new ratings?
A: Ian is a big proponent of erosive systems. A lot of folks ask for the Dreamblade system, which is pretty good but has difficulties which the player base might not be aware of. If they reset, you won't lose your ranking.

Q: Might there be "Classic" 200 point competitions?
A: Yes, they're talking about that.

Q: When will Michael Derry's Championship miniature be availble?
A: There will be more details about this in the coming weeks. Shoe and Derry just talked about that earlier in Gen Con.

Q: Huges: Will they be coming out? Will there be All Star huges? Future Huge sets?
A: Yes. Maybe. Yes. The July 2008 set is the first 4th Edition huge set, with the Giant theme. 60 mini set in total, with 12 huges, but slightly different c/u/r distribution than we're expecting.

Q: What about synergies between Dwarves with Phalanx Fighting and stuff like that? Will those things still exist?
A: Yes, through the use of keywords (Wizard, Good, Evil, etc.), there will be ways to encourage certain kinds of warband configurations and synergies.

Q: How do the skirmish players influence the design? What percentage of the product is being bought strictly for skirmish?
A: About 1/3 of the players play the skirmish game. But it's muddy because plenty of people overlap into roleplaying and collecting. Roleplayers are at least 2/3 or 3/4 because of the overlap. They do respect how vocal the skirmishers are. They listen to the skirmishers' feedback. But there always will be some minis that are designed primarily for the rpg.

Q: For minis with normal and epic cards, will the All Star version have both cards?
A: Haven't figured that out yet.

Q: Summoners: Will they be more than points on a stick?
A: Rob: "I believe at this time, I will not answer your question " (laughter.)

Q: Will theme warbands be more viable? This helps roleplayers transition into the skirmish game.
A: New Faction system is designed to promote certain themes. By doing so many good miniatures in the skirmish game, the roleplayers are itching to kill the good minis. In 4th Ed, good creatures do fight each other and have conflict. The skirmish miniatures pushed them in that direction.

Q: You have Good & Evil. Are there Law & Chaos too?
A: Law and Chaos could be keywords, but not factions.

Q: Is there a loose point formula/system for DDM, and can you put it in an article for converting from the rpg?
A: Coming up with a tool to do that (admittedly imperfectly) is certainly something to think about. They do enjoy writing the Design & Development articles.

... still going ...

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#7. by username

Some interesting changes there. Sounds like it will be an almost completely different game. Also, it appears there will be a Yuan-ti instead of a drow in the new starter set.

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#8. by Runelord151

The Mrs. just talked to AD. He, the Tatroe bro's and JD all are optomistic of DDM 2.0. They said they really like the sound of it.

No more news as Guy has seemed to cover the seminar very well.

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#9. by Ghendar

Steve put a bunch of minis up on the podium, including the gelatinous cube! The top comes off, and you can put a medium-size mini init!


Oh my goodness. That is going to be one freakin' hot figure.

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#10. by Ghendar, responding to zhaodaiGo to post

OH NO!!! They're going to ruin the game! The world is ending! I ... ah hell.

I am sorry, though I am not sold 100% just yet on everything, from the early looks I see, I think this could be very cool and very good for the game.

As far as the new troll goes ... well I am still not totally sold just yet.

I'm interested enough to pick up a starter and check it out.

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#11. by ZER0, responding to GhendarGo to post

OH NO!!! They're going to ruin the game! The world is ending! I ... ah hell.

I am sorry, though I am not sold 100% just yet on everything, from the early looks I see, I think this could be very cool and very good for the game.

As far as the new troll goes ... well I am still not totally sold just yet.

I'm interested enough to pick up a starter and check it out.

Not in the starter. It'll be in the actual set. The starter will be the blistered figs with a dragon and a yuan-ti.

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#12. by Herschel

The G-cube could have a cool effect like :ingested figure loses 10 HP/round and can not activate, but is released if G-cube is destriyed.

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#13. by Moosemaster, responding to HerschelGo to post

I don't like the "ditching" of commanders, per se, but we'll have to see. Morale is gone? That will help me a LOT!

This change makes me sad and angry... It's a fundamental change to the game. I like the idea that some creatures will run before fighting to the death... makes sense to me.

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#14. by CorimDanex, responding to MoosemasterGo to post

I don't like the "ditching" of commanders, per se, but we'll have to see. Morale is gone? That will help me a LOT!

This change makes me sad and angry... It's a fundamental change to the game. I like the idea that some creatures will run before fighting to the death... makes sense to me.
It makes almost no sense from an RPG perspective, though. They say they are trying to bring it more in line with RPG game.

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#15. by ZER0, responding to MoosemasterGo to post

I don't like the "ditching" of commanders, per se, but we'll have to see. Morale is gone? That will help me a LOT!

This change makes me sad and angry... It's a fundamental change to the game. I like the idea that some creatures will run before fighting to the death... makes sense to me.

Yeah, like orcs and dwarves, they run at exactly half hit points all the time. And Pit Fiends. Oh, and PC's are the worst, they run when facing *anything*. I think what they should do is give the creatures like kobolds and goblins a flighty ability where they actually have a chance of running whatsoever.

Last edited Aug 18, 2007 4:50 pm by ZER0

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#16. by jgsugden

It sounds like these improvements could make the game a lot better... but the cost may be too high. I hope they'll continue to release new All-stars or equivalencies to allow us to use older minis...

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#17. by DwarvenBrawler, responding to HerschelGo to post

Potentially willing to make/sell hard copies of the legacy support cards depending on demand.

Well I "demand" that they do, and I know I'm not the only one.

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