How about this?

Elminster
Storm
Nebin
Aramil
Xeph Warrior x4

Here is what Elminster gains
blur, color spray, Melf's acid arrow, magic weapon; magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, mage armor; confusion, cure serious wounds, fly

The Xephs ain't much, but I suppose you could blur them and give them magic weapon (though I probably wouldn't). You can, however, buff up Storm and Elminster, and, they can both cast confusion at DC 18. And, before long, they should both have flight and blur. And, the opponent's beaters should be enfeebled. With mage armor, and magic weapon Elminster almost looks like a beater (AC 22, melee +14/+9 (10 magic)).

You've got two lines for 20 damage (no save), two Melf's acid arrows if you time things right, and Mystra's curse could totally foil some opponent's strategy.

The scorching rays will work against all but highly resistant enemies (and Countersong from Storm shuts down a Couatl). The color spray, in Elminster's hands, is a DC 15 stun cone--near the end of battle, that could save Elminster or Storm from being hit (and, combined with Mystra's curse and blur, this could really screw with an opponent's chances of causing damage).

If you keep Elminster and Storm alive (and that will be the trick, but, Elminster in this build has enough sight-range spells to pull it off, perhaps), that's 157 points your opponent can't get.

Worth some consideration, perhaps?

Dave

Most of the attack spells are shut down by being based. So you would definetely have to watch out for that. The two lines are nice, but I'm not sure if you'd actually be able to win out against a quad-beater band so much.

storms line 20 is a speacial ability i believe, so elminster would not gain the line 20

I'm pretty sure Elminster has Silver Fire also.

Yes, Elminster has his own Silver Fire, that's what I was referring to.

Dave

I'm pretty sure Elminster has Silver Fire also.

in fact he does! thanks for pointing that out, i knew he gained every1s spells but wasnt sur of everything else,

Most of the attack spells are shut down by being based. So you would definetely have to watch out for that. The two lines are nice, but I'm not sure if you'd actually be able to win out against a quad-beater band so much.

The damage output, as the enemy approaches, isn't very good. But, I'm looking at this as similar to some of the Archmage builds of the somewhat recent past. You need to avoid getting based, if possible. But, excepting Blindsight, the blur and Mystra's curse, if combined, could effectively neuter the issue of being based.

Dave

Running it on a Forest map I would think would almost be a must. You want to make sure you can get off your spells at anytime. Also each piece can potentially have Fly cast on them, Elminster + Storm that is. So being in Forest so you can always cast spells, +4 to AC from the forest, and your spells dont really care about their AC being +4, and you can fly while they may not be able to, all make a Forest map seem like the best include.

I still think it'll be easy for them to hit you once or twice, and then basically have your whole band in critical danger of being hit again and dying. Its just a lot of points tied up, but I think its doable. Slowing them down with fodder will help you get off that many more spells, just make sure you are collecting Tile Points also all the time.

So, maybe instead of Xeph Warrior x4 the band should have a 5-point,a 4-point and a 3-point figure. A Timber Wolf ups the odds of first round VA points.

Timber Wolf
Jozan or Elf Warrior
Xeph Warrior

Heck, it might be better to do two Xephs and stick with 199 points.

Dave

I think its a very interesting idea. But what concerns me most is the lack of speed on both Elminster and Storm. It seems there is enough offense between Storm and El to take down one or two opponent hitters (and maybe even a non-fire resistant titan) which should give you a decent points advantage. However, F6 (at best) on both Elminster and Storm is a very big disadvantage. El is a surprisingly tough 'cus, but Storm is shockingly squishy. I dont think they are fast enough to maintain a "shoot and scoot" strategy over the course of an hour long match and cannot afford to stand their ground against one or two decent hitters. Of course, the possibility of debilitating the opponents warband for a number of rounds is certainly there but both Color Spray and Confusion (even at decent DCs) are not terribly difficult to contend with -- and making a saving throw only takes a couple seconds, which doesnt buy you a whole lot of additional time.

It could be alot of fun to try and a great exercise in positioning, but in the end I think F6 does not give them enough mobility to survive against a great many warbands.

With so many special abilities going on, this would be a great thread to add:

Elminster of Shadowdale

So:

Round 1:

El: Fly6
Storm: Fly6
Nebin: Blur Storm
Aramil: MM fodder or Mage Armor self

move a bit, hope for VP. Nebin is slow, can't move too far.

Round 2:

El: Confuse a group? Mystra's Curse a beater/titan? Melfs a tweener?
Storm: Confusion
Nebin: Blur Elm
Aramil: MM fodder or wait for Ray

Elm is 8 squares away from Nebins start square.

Round 3: ahhh, the fun begins

El: Mystra's Curse as appropriate or Melf's beater
Storm: Is there a silver fire option?
Nebin: Color Spray/Melfs
Aramil: Must have Enfeeble option by now

Maybe 30 points of damage from MM's, Melfs and a Silver Fire. For annoyance, hopefully one good Confusion or Mystra's, a Color Spray, and an Enfeeble.

Well, my breaks over so back to real work. Seems the 40 Silver Fire is pretty tough to deal with. Seems like I'd want Storm out there fighting after the Confusion in R2 goes off, just to attract attention, get max Silver Fire and be able to use her Cures (and get more than 12 squares from her exit).

My brief $.02

Elminster + Storm in 200 point play is a combo I wish could work. They're iconic heroes of the Realms, so it should work just as Drizz't should be an intimidating foe to face. Unfortunately, the mathematics hold Elminster back. I'm not going to say the band originally posted 'lacks blockers', because Storm is a capable melee beater on par with the Zakya Rakshasa, and Elminster's not totally hopeless at it (albeit not that great, either).

Rather, the real problem is the numbers. Confusion is not an entirely reliable Spell. When it works, it's great and can turn a match into a free win...but it works so very rarely (probably for that very reason). Further, several popular, competitive pieces are immune to it: Helmed Horrors, Maugs, Kolyaruts, etc. Several others are likely to make even DC 18. So this can't be relied on to win. It's a potent threat and I love Confusion, but it is not enough to consistently win with.

So that leaves us with the second part of the strategy, high defense. AC 22 with Blur and movement of F6 is fairly defensible, as is having 90 HP. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if this is fast enough to reliably elude Bralanis, Valenar Nomads, Large Green Dragons, Shadowdancers, Kord, Githmonks, Thundertusk Cavalry, and a few other fast melee pieces that see regular play. It is entirely likely they will catch Elm of Inster and beat him down for 100 points. If your plan is to win by not losing -- and it's an entirely viable way to win in some cases -- then this may not be the best platform to do it with.

That leaves damage. The band that was posted cannot deal with a Fire Giant Forgepriest's 150 HP. It simply cannot. The math looks something like: 150 - 40 (2x Silver Fire) = 110. Minus 20 (two Acid Arrows) = 90. Then three or four Magic Missiles is another 15-20 damage...leaving you with 75 to 70 HP left to deal with. If he doesn't rout off the board, you're hosed; he will crush Storm in melee combat, and laugh at Elminster in the same. At that point, they're facing the near-equivalent of a Marut with a Couatl by it (70-75 HP, two 30 damage swings) that also has Cleave.

The numbers are similarly bad for being able to take out LE Quads (Duergar Phonebooth, etc.), LG multi-Thundertusk, LG Constructs (Maug + Kolyarut bands), and even CG "rush you down and pwn you" bands like invisi-Berserkers. You mathematically do not have enough damage to reliably kill most enemy bands before they kill you.

Elminster in 200/8 just doesn't seem viable. I wish he was. Now, he does seem semi-playable in the 200/4 "Arena format" Tried was discussing. Team him up with Storm Silverhand and an Elf Warmage, and Elminster has a viable list of attack spells. But in 200/8, you can't get the damage you need and fill the activations you need. The best mage to team up with Elminster in 200/8 is the Adventuring Wizard, I feel, and he's still not enough.

This isn't me trying to rain on a parade. I think Elminster's spiffy as a character and ought to be viable in competitive play outside of Epic format. Archmage works in 200/8 if he has a Titan to focus on; he runs in, does 30 repeating autodamage to it, and keeps running away hurling 15-20 more damage every so often. Elminster has nothing like this, and just can't get the job done in this format.

errr.....

elminster
storm
elf warmage

More than enough damage potential there.

Also teh first turn would be either curse + confuse, or double confuse. fly ins't wother the chance to confuse a bunch of figures.

Don't forget to add in that Gnome Trickster. Ele gets to cast the inivisbilty sphere later in the game... :)

But in 200/8, you can't get the damage you need and fill the activations you need. The best mage to team up with Elminster in 200/8 is the Adventuring Wizard, I feel, and he's still not enough.

I'd agree with PK's analysis, based on damage - a 200/8 El band will simply never generate the kind of damage you need to overcome a band with serious HP.

Of course, they don't call him the 'Old Sage' for nothing; nor for nothing does is he mentioned as one of the iconic scoundrels in the D&D multiverse in the current Complete Scoundrel book. The key with El in 200, IMO, is not to set up for a 'fair fight'.

Disclaimer: I have far less experience with El in 200 than with epic El in 500, and no actual tourney wins with El in 200, so take this advice with as large a grain of salt as necessary.

Using confusion is a good thought; as noted, if the spell works, you're almost certainly golden. For this reason, when playing 'tricky El', casting Mystra's curse and getting it to stick is an absolute must - there are a number of creatures who can reliably save vs DC 18, but not many of those can reliably save twice vs DC 18. And keep in mind that the DC listed for Mystra's curse on El's card doesn't include his Spell Focus 2, so the actual save DC is 21; good enough to affect most titans in 200. I'd argue that if you're up against an enemy titan, you'll want to Quick-Cast Mystra's curse if you get a shot at hitting the titan and it passes its initial save. If he saves against both shots, you're odds of winning go down significantly; on the other hand, if your opponent rolls reliably well on anything, be it attack rolls, saves, or initiatives, your odds of winning go down.

If you're going to win by trickery, you're going to need some tricky spellcasters, and none is trickier thus far than the Gnome Trickster. You'll also need an anti-Trickster piece to protect against invisible-Dancers and Berserkers, so you should also likely add the Aasimar Favored Soul. "But doesn't the Aasimar negate the advantage of your Trickster, too?" I hear you ask. Sure, if you burn the Trickster's invisibility sphere early, as most current strategies do. Keep in mind, though, that the Trickster can cast his sphere later in the match as well, and with his Combat Casting, even being based doesn't prevent it. And if your opponent goes after the Trickster and eliminates him, you've still got an 'installed spare' in Elminster.

But the sphere is for once you have the lead; how do you get the lead? Mystra's curse has obvious defensive benefits, but it also has offensive benefits as well - even a relatively low save effect has a substantially higher chance to affect if the target has to roll twice and take the worst result. Which is where hold person comes in.

You're way ahead of me.

The Goliath Cleric of Kavaki is tailor-made for 100-point Elminster. Yes, the Cleric is slow, but a caster band isn't trying to approach, so your speed is a minimal disadvantage. Yes, his attack bonus is relatively low, but against low-AC targets (like Shadowdancers and Frenzied Berserkers), he'll still hit reliably. (Also, don't forget the bless and magic weapon the Aasimar can provide.) Against a Paralyzed opponent, the Cleric deals an automatic 40 damage, which can then be augmented via snake's swiftness by both the Trickster and El. (You're still going to have trouble handling titans like the Forgepriest that are immune to hold person, but sadly the only non-epic source for hold monster is the Lich Necromancer, who can't be put in CG.)

Last but not at all least, the Cleric's 20-point heal is activation-worthy, and gets duplicated on El's card as well.

Round out with a number of cheap, fast activations to help ensure that you don't fall behind on assault points:

Elminster of Shadowdale 100
Goliath Cleric of Kavaki 36 (136)
Gnome Trickster 27 (163)
Aasimar Favored Soul 20 (183)
Wild Elf Raider 6 (189)
Timber Wolf 5 (194)
Xeph Warrior x2 6 (200)

You'll probably have a much harder time dealing with ranged bands that don't need to approach than with beater bands that do, though even then you can choose to burn one invisibility sphere early for the approach (and leave the AFS back as tile-grabber) and save the other for cloaking once ahead on points; it's probably not auto-loss, though I'm sure it'll feel like it during setup. For this reason I'm not even going to suggest it as a significant 'tourney band', though it definitely counts as a bad match-up for a number of currently popular tourney bands, most of which are low-save CG bands.

Just my $0.02US.

--
Pauper

but sadly the only non-epic source for hold monster is the Lich Necromancer, who can't be put in CG.

Kolyarut has Hold Monster, although you still can't put it into CG.

That leaves damage. The band that was posted cannot deal with a Fire Giant Forgepriest's 150 HP. It simply cannot. The math looks something like: 150 - 40 (2x Silver Fire) = 110. Minus 20 (two Acid Arrows) = 90. Then three or four Magic Missiles is another 15-20 damage...leaving you with 75 to 70 HP left to deal with. If he doesn't rout off the board, you're hosed; he will crush Storm in melee combat, and laugh at Elminster in the same. At that point, they're facing the near-equivalent of a Marut with a Couatl by it (70-75 HP, two 30 damage swings) that also has Cleave.

The numbers are similarly bad for being able to take out LE Quads (Duergar Phonebooth, etc.), LG multi-Thundertusk, LG Constructs (Maug + Kolyarut bands), and even CG "rush you down and pwn you" bands like invisi-Berserkers. You mathematically do not have enough damage to reliably kill most enemy bands before they kill you.

Dave

After reading this thread I suddenly became aware of just how strong El+Storm can be. It still isn't going to beat most top bands but with good strategy you can let the opposing band do a lot of the work.

Here's what I mean: Pauper nailed it when he said that if you're going to win you need to make Mystra's Curse work. As soon as you have clear view at a major beater - cast it - twice if needed. If he passes both, you're pretty much screwed but even level 10 creatures are only going to do this 1/4 of the time. Now is when you cast confusion - from both Storm and Elminster if needed. Not only does the cursed creature have to pass both saves to shake the curse, he also has to roll twice every round he is confused to see who controls him. That means, a confused creature is yours to control 7/16 of the time, stands still 1/2 of the time and controlled by the opponent 1/16 of the time.

If all goes well - congratulations, you now have another beater on your side. Even if all the creatures eventually manage to shake both confusion spells, the cursed creature is going to have a really hard time hitting a blurred El and Storm in the forest (assuming you get your map).

I think the times you win with this band won't depend on how much damage you can deal to the opponent, but how much damage they can do to themselves. Naturally, constructs and undead will really mess you up - c'est la vie.

Elminster 100
Purple Dragon Knight 45 145
Elf Stalker/Steelheart Archer 15 160
Graycloak Ranger 15 175
Wolf Minion free 175
Graycloak Ranger 15 190
Wolf Minion free 190
Mialee, Elf Wizard 6 196
Elf Warrior 4 200

Except for the Elf Archer, Magic Damage from everything after round 1, two fear cones, etc. Grotto for map and PDK acts as a bodyguard for the archers.